Excuse me for a moment, just thinking out loud again.
I've been thinking a bit lately about what it would be like to work with a team of people on H-games. Working alone, a single game's profit is enough to support me an entire year and then some. Assuming that I make multiple games in a year, this means that I would have enough money to basically fund a project, and hire artists who are far superior to myself.
Assuming I'd be making a 2d game, I would probably be hiring..
1. A spriter.
2. A background/tileset artist.
3. A CG artist.
Either the spriter or the CG artist would be responsible for designing enemies and character's. I would then do the programming, the (level/game)design, and the soundtrack myself, since I wouldn't really trust somebody else with any of those other than soundtrack.
Assuming the games produced would be of higher quality and polish than Kurovadis, which made around $30,000 in less than a year, it would be a fairly safe bet to make $30,000 my budget. How the budget is divided between the team would be based on the number of hours it would take each member to complete their work.
CG ARTIST
Let's say there are 30 enemies and CGs for half of them. A common commission price is around $70, which is absolutely pathetic, so let's assume they would at least be making around $20 per hour. If it takes 10 hours for one CG, that would cost a total of $3000 for all 15, which is reasonable. $6000 for 30, if they could take the workload. (or if I hired two artists)
SPRITE ARTIST
This is a little bit harder to determine, since I only have myself as a basis for comparison. On a bad day, I can finish an enemy's animations in a few hours. However, the hired artist could be much better than I am, and yet take more time, or maybe less. If there are around 30 enemies and each one takes 4 hours, that's 120 hours of work. Add another 20-40 for the player. If I'm paying the sprite artist at the same rate as the CG artist, that would be $3200. The industry standard is around $30 for an artist, however, which would be a total of $4800, which seems more reasonable.
TILE ARTIST
At least for me, tilesets take a lot less time than sprites. But then, my tilesets are pretty economic since I work alone, and are far from the quality I'd expect from someone who considers it a speciality. In other words, I have no idea how long it would take, however I assume the hourly rate would be about the same as the sprite artist. So for instance, if there are 4 areas, 4 tilesets in each, and a tileset takes 8 hours, then that would be 128 hours of work. So around $3840.
Of course, assuming I pay the two artists 30 per hour, I suppose I'd have to pay the CG artist that as well. Bringing it to $9000.
TOTALS
CG Artist: $9000
Sprite Artist: $4800
Tileset/ background Artist: $3840
In total, that's only $17,640. If I give them more money to cover income tax it's still only around $20,000. Let's also assume that such thinking is too optimistic and bump it up to $25,000.
That would leave the rest of the budget to me. Alternatively, I could spend the entire budget on the team and only receive the profit from the game. (Meaning I'd make money once the profits exceeded $30,000)
To put it simply, working with a team seems a lot more practical financially then I first thought. Even if I make less money myself, ideally the games would be of higher quality since each artist would be dedicated to his/her own position. The only problem would be finding people who are skilled and reliable. It would also be difficult to find someone who doesn't have a full time job initially.
Anyhow, just thinking out-loud. It would be a while until I attempt something like that anyway, since I'll have to finish a few games myself first.
Time to get back to it.
Ooh, you could have your own team and everything! I can see it now: Kyrieru Productions. First just a small team put together for one game, but that small team had big dreams! One game becomes two, two become four, the company gets too big, and before you know it you're in control of the h-game EMPIRE.
ReplyDeleteBut, I mean, if that doesn't happen but you make a neat game at least, that would also be good. :D
You've accomplished some significant stuff by H-Game standards, even by general indie standards. But putting together a team and making sure it runs effectively involves some different skills. There is an element of risk.
ReplyDeleteBut with a few more games released, you'd probably be in a decent position to try it out. If you make the news on indiegames.com or something, a lot of people would probably be interested in collaborating on projects. You could pick and choose the artists with the best balance between quality and ability to meet deadlines.
Well if you ever want or need help, feel free to drop me a line. I'm currently working on some projects of my own in between part-time jobs, but I have been an artist on indie titles in the past and I'm not averse to working on adult content (in fact it's something I've been going out of my way to improve upon over the past year).
ReplyDeleteYou can see some of my recent stuff over on my blog at http://deliciousorange.blogspot.com/
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletelol, double comment thanks to Blogspot hiccup
DeleteIf my artistry was any better than complete shit, I'd offer my serviced; however, I'm still learning how to draw by far. :(
ReplyDeleteLeading a team can be pretty tough at times.
ReplyDeleteI myself only build one up, since I've got plenty of experience about team leading from the work I used to do a couple years ago, as well as some online-team leading experience I made in the past.
But don't let yourself be discouraged, it can be tough, but if you manage to pull it off, it's definitely rewarding.
And you never know how things turn out, as long as you haven't tried them out!
One piece of advice that I give everyone who thinks about building up a team:
- build up a strong relationship to your teammembers
(just being a team without friendship and trust is not going to work out in the long run)
- find people who are ambitous and share some dreams or goals with you
- do other things together with your team, aside from "working"
Well, of course there is a lot more than that, but people tend to forget on these points of team leading very often.
So that's the reason why I like to point those few things out.
(but yes... it's consuming a lot of time, but it really pays off!)
Other than that, I guess you have a pretty good estimation on how the financial side of team leading looks like.
I wish you good luck, and all the best wishes for your future plans!
~Wolfenstahl~
A team of H-game developers. "Do other things together with your team"...
DeleteI am implying many things!
I meant doing stuff like talking about everyday things, playing games together, or watching movies/animes together etc.
DeleteI do those things occasionally with my team-mates ^^
(instead of working all the time, or talking about work all the time)
(but yes, I get your joke there, of course you could do those things as well lol)
Sounds to me like a great plan. While working with a team is probably a lot moe stressful at first, i can see some great advantages with little disadvantage from team forming. I, like many others, like a lot(if not all) the work you present us with, but it's always sad to see a great concept you've designed be thrown into a 'do later' pile for lack of time, or too big a concept to work on alone. Here's to hoping you make the decision that best suits your thoughts on what you'd like to accomplish in the next few years and onward.
ReplyDeleteYour BG's and CG's are the best.There will no be simmilar even if they will be super high quality.WTF U ARE TALKING ABOUT MY DEAR MATE,KYRIERU? :'(
ReplyDeleteSo this is how it begins...
ReplyDeleteA new age is upon us.
I must say that I worry about paying artists hourly wages. You may want to put a max cap per picture, to prevent them from trying to milk it. I know, I know, it's better to have some faith in people, but I've had one artist take nine freaking months to do art for me - for the time it took and the quality I got, it most certainly wasn't worth the 80 I spent on it - this from an artist I had come to trust prior...
ReplyDeleteBe careful with your artists is what I suppose I'm trying to say.
Its not a bad idea and considering the game originally was fairly cheap, with a good team behind you you could easily ask a little more price wise. However I am sure it would also help in the moral support in thinking "I got all these people working and im doing nothing....probably need to jump on something" lol
ReplyDeleteI do agree with....er...Anon @ 5:55pm (come on guys, that shy to put a name?) That paying artists based on hour is risky, especially if you do not know them or the work they do.
I personally would stay solo, if you have some "friends" that you know can help then it's understandable and you know you can trust them to do the job. If I ever get into game development I would (maybe) probably hire a programmer cuz I fall asleep writing redundant code constantly, and its a fairly linear task. Don't put your art down, your light years ahead of most of us in the sprite art field. I think your sprite art is top notch and on par with big name games like the Final fantasy series (Pre PS gen).
ReplyDeleteI agree with the others that mentioned that you may want to just consider hiring them on a term/contract bases.
Income tax is a pain and as a fellow Canadian that shares your pain I can't wait till they either reform it or scrap it for a more modern system. There is a fairly popular idea/plan in the states for a tax system called the "fair tax" (I know tax isn't fair no mater how you look at it but just bear with me), this system would completely eliminate income tax in favor of a national sales tax, would combine other hidden taxes into one, and remove the high cost of bullshit in the system by making it a lot simpler. Don't know how this idea would work in Canada but if the states dose a tax reform like this then Canada will have to follow suit (or loose most of their talent to the states). From what I understand the idea is starting to really build support due to the US being on the verge of national bankruptcy and all available options are being exhausted.
A system like this would make it A LOT easier for small entrepreneurs to plan accurately, without worrying about the mar of red tape.
My art is fine, but the problem is that I can't focus on it like I would were it my only job. Instead I have to worry about time, and working economically. That being said, though, there are still pixel artists far superior to myself, so in the best case scenario the final product would be better for it.
DeleteIn terms of tax, I have the advantage of not needing to pay sales tax, since the product is sold online. I only need to pay income tax, which isn't really all that high.
damn it, it sucks not being good with stuff like that XD if i could i would jump ontto this in a heartbeat (my main reason wouldn't be for money but rather to help out a awesome dood....money being like 2nd XD) oh well, my fault for being retarded lol
ReplyDeleteI am not sure about the team. On one hand, yes, you're right, possibly that would allow game to be far more developed, on the other - I like your particular style and level when it comes to graphics. I am worried that whoever you'd hire, no matter how skilled, would create pieces somewhat less befitting my taste (I especially dread all those very-big-breasts-and-butts-fetish guys there's so many working in H industry).
ReplyDeleteIf I'd be the one choosing who I'd like to pay additionally to get a better game, it'd probably be what you'd rather avoid - level designer, programmer etc. I still hope one day to see you produce something like sandbox-world H rune factory game with big world and a plot of great non-linearity and it's writing and creating locations that'd be greatly needed in case of such production. But even dreams aside, such guys may be necessary to make the game plain bigger and offering more without great increase of time.
Production time, I mean.
DeleteKeep in mind that I would essentially be the director, so I'd be looking for styles that are appealing to me. Also keep in mind that artists with any amount of experience can change their style to better fit any project.
DeleteAs for a bigger project, perhaps someday.
I realize how awkward this might be, but for the reliability aspect, you should hire people who live nearby; that way, you can collaborate and explain your ideas better, check on them more easily...and they can't just disappear off the face of the planet. And of course, you can get to know them better and build up a good understanding of their capabilities, and a trust.
ReplyDeleteI think Mojang started requiring that team members move to Sweden, heh.
You might consider someone for 'mechanics', like interactive puzzles; you can do some awesome stuff with GameMaker. Things like the gears and moving platforms, but more complex, yet simple enough to be interesting; the latest demo of Project AM2R has some examples and is made in GM, though that's entirely non-H, heh.
DeleteMaybe that person could also help you think of unique abilities and such.
Living sprites are your forte I think. Kuro, the enemies, ect. You should keep doing at least most of these.
Game design was great, the only thing that was kinda weird was the out of place rooms with the tentacles going from floor-to-ceiling in Volcanic Hell. And at one point in the mansion, there's a door transition where if you jump through, you get stuck in a ceiling.
The music is good, the ambiance from the first few rooms and the 'caves' was very nice, and the other areas were awesome and not repetitive; but the styles jumped around a lot. Transitional tracks would fix that I think.
From there, you're really good at CGs, but I'm getting into that slowly and I know that's something that's difficult to 'pump out' if it's not your only job.
Tilesets, eh...just saying, they're good, but there's plenty of room for improvement.
Just to give you ideas, heh.
Would you ever be willing to do art for someone else's project? If so, how much would you consider a fair wage? Would you ever work for a cut of the project's earnings?
ReplyDeleteIn terms of your ability as a spriter, I think you're selling yourself short. Your work is as visually appealing and tonally unique as any I've seen in the mainstream 2d market. Perhaps you do not work as quickly as the other artists, and that's why you devalue your work?
It's not that I'm bad at spriting, it's just that there are people who are better, and hiring someone means that the person could focus on making the sprites the best they could be, rather than worrying about a bunch of other things at the same time like I have to.
DeleteAs for working on a project for someone else, it would depend on the project and the people involved.
Wow, you're really getting into this isn't?
ReplyDeleteAs you put it, it seems practical, the main problem would be finding people you can really trust/work comfortably with, but you have to do trial and error, working on a team has it's downs, but the potential of what you can achieve is significantly bigger than what you could do on your own. This is something you definitively look up for the future.
Good luck ;)
Yeah, the tough part is finding someone who is good, comfortable with doing adult material, reliable, AND in a position to actually work for you.
DeleteIt's hard enough as it is to find someone who's good.
Sounds like you're pretty level-headed about this, so I think you'd be able to pull it off. Just keep in mind that with more team members comes more need for oversight, review, and general production overhead.
ReplyDeleteGranted, 120-160 hours worth of work isn't all that much, so with a game of small enough scope, it's less scary. And four team members really isn't *that* big.
Anyway, keep it up. Kurovadis was fun as heck and I can't wait to see what you have in store.
One thing I love about this; sure, it's got the content, but it's actually fun to play too. That's hard to come by.
DeleteI hope you can find more people like yourself to work with Kyrieru, and think that together you could make something even better!
Kyrieru, i've been following this guy's work for sometime. http://probertson.tumblr.com/
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surpriced if he were up for some porn considering how crazy some of his stuff is. I think he got plenty of projects going on tho.
He has some stuff with nudity, but he also seems to be very open about all his work. I doubt he would be willing to work on something with depictions of rape when he could work on more mainstream projects instead.
DeleteJust a thought: have you considered kickstarter? That could pretty much pay for the development in advance.
ReplyDeleteWell, that's the thing. If I were doing this, then the budget is already paid for by previous games. Money isn't really the issue.
DeleteKickstarter specifically disallows projects involving adult content. Otherwise it might be a good avenue.
DeleteI would have loved to help you, but I'm on the other side: I'm a game dev, not a game artist. And I agree that you should try to find local people, it's best for sharing views, getting ideas... I dunno, maybe try setting a booth at a local anime con and see if you can meet people there.
ReplyDeleteI, for one, would love to team with an artist. Say, no artist here in France who would like to make a game? :p
i knew that these games took time and money to make but i didn't know it takes around that much money to hire a team to help!
ReplyDeleteWhat about hiring a women to do professional voice overs(Moans)for female protagonists, and/or female enemies for your team?
ReplyDeleteNot a big fan of porn-esque moans. The VA I got to do the voices in Kurovadis was paid, and chances are with future games it will be the same type thing.
Deleteoook, so your going to use that one girl you know for all your games, or do you plan on hiring different ones in the future?
DeleteDifferent ones and her.
DeleteHello!
ReplyDeleteI've never commented on here until now but I greatly support your work.
If you wish some little help on those graphical works, I'd like to help you. I don't consider myself as "good", but I enjoy doing pixel arts/sprite works.
Looking forward to your answer,
Rey D.
PS: Sorry for the messed ID thing. I'm not used to posting on blogpost.
DeleteI appreciate the offer, however I would be looking for an artist with more experience. (More skill than myself)
DeleteIf you haven't already, you should try out Game Maker for yourself. You'd be surprised what you can learn an accomplish on your own in just a years time.
Alright, I understand. Good luck finding that someone better than you. It probably won't be easy.
DeleteI plan on seriously trying Game Maker once circumstances allow me to. Thanks a lot for the suggestion.
I just wanted to say that I look forward to throwing more money at you in the future. ;p
ReplyDeleteHello! I wanted to let you know that if you're still looking for an artist I would love to work with you. At the moment i'm only studying on my own and don't have anything planed for some time, so I could concentrate on the project 100%. Anyway if this caught your eye check out some of my recent works: http://shliurpalas.carbonmade.com/projects/4690191 and contact me at shliurt@gmail.com. Adapting a different style and all the adult material would be no prob for me. Hope my skills will be convincing enough xD
ReplyDeleteHahah, oh man, I wish I had the artistic capabilities to apply for one of these positions. As it stands, however, my talents are sorely lacking; I have only ever made one sprite from scratch, and it wasn't very good. My expertise is more firmly ingrained in the art of wordplay, and even then I am no master.
ReplyDeleteGood luck putting your dream team together, Kyrieru. Artists may not be jumping at the bit to get involved with a porn game, but I'm certain that you will find some real talent out there whose ideals align with your own.
To be completely honest I'm not sure why you wouldn't do it, you have very professional looking work already and I feel like you criticize your own work more than necessary. I'm willing to bet that if you were to make an attempt at a game for the sake of working it into mainstream it'd be a huge hit because the work you show with Kurovadis alone is beyond that of your typical H-game. If you were to remove the adult content of Kurovadis and update the art, lengthen the game some more, add some more versatility to the shooting mechanics, and add more story to it you very well have a perfectly good original game. Maybe I'm just blowing this out of the back of my head, but as far as an h-game goes you're far beyond normal and that's a good thing.
ReplyDelete