Not going to name names but...it wasn't very good. To sum it up, great graphics, decent music..and terrible pretty much everything else..
That aside, it made me want to try doing a hand drawn sprite, to see how viable it would be in the future.
This was the result of my first attempt, which took roughly half an hour,
So basically, it would talk about half an hour per frame to animate, but may vary depending on what animation techniques I'd use. This is somewhat interesting, because doing a polished pixel art sprite can take anywhere from half an hour to an hour for the initial pose, yet takes less time to animate. Which, to my surprise, means it might actually be viable to do hand drawn sprites at some point, which would be neat, and probably a good change of pace.
I'm guessing this << アンダーカバーガール ノーパンJK囮捜査痴漢監獄列車 >> is the game? Either that or it was a game by excess-m.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like it'd be difficult to do handrawn if there were more details on the character like complex clothing vs pixel art since you can get away with transformations with pixel art.
What do you mean by transformation exactly?
DeletePixel art is easier because it's simpler to erase and redraw small details, if that's what you mean.
Well something like if your character's wearing clothes, and he/she idles by bouncing on their tiptoes, you can transform the clothing up and down... actually the correct word here is translation isn't it.
DeleteOr if it's a girl wearing a ribbon. The ribbon image doesn't necessarily have to change, you just move it according to where it has to be... right. If it's handrawn you need to redraw it everytime right?
Yup, that's the word you're looking for.
DeleteI tend to use translation as a sort of base before redrawing certain things. Like if I move a ribbon, I still probably have to redraw it for the angle, or make it sway with the general movement.
You might want to ask Vosmug for a few tips on the animation part
ReplyDeleteErr...no offence, but I have a lot more experience with animation than he does..
DeleteAlso, completely different styles. From the looks of it, he makes rigs in flash, which is why so many of the animations are just from one angle. I animate traditionally, meaning I draw every frame from scratch.
I see. I'm not that familiar with 2D animation so I wasn't sure which one is actually better
DeleteHow about animators like Noillart or Modeseven? Both of them make hand-drawn animations and Noill is even making a game right now.
DeleteYeah, that's the kind of animation I'm talking about.
DeleteAs a complete profane I can't really tell what are the advantages and disadvantages.
ReplyDeleteI think that the more you go into detail and increase size, the more hand drawn gets better...
Or you can simply use it to ease the boredom of using always the same technique.
That said, I'm placing a bet that "misterious game H" that let you unsatisfied was from "S0ftH0us3 S*al" (let's censore it a bit :D ).
Either way I'd be excited to see a game of this scale... I think the best kind of game to make with this image size would be a beat-em up. They don't require as many images as fighters or as much graphical complexity. Most of the fun lies in the overall design of the system.
ReplyDeleteI think that's kind of a common problem with a lot of games like that, the art and everything is nice, but the gameplay is just awful. I think the ones with the gameplay that works and is actually fun to play are yours, Tifatan X2, LAB Still Alive and Nagia Yamiji, at least out of the ones I've played.
ReplyDeleteUnholy Sanctuary is really good too, and Iris Action.
DeleteCute ^.^ She seems like someone That is the opposite of Shy ^_^ and she say´s things like : I don´t care I f he is the Boss of These bad guy´s! Of course I will beet him! Or He don´t stand a Chance! >_< Or something like that ; P Just my first Impression XP
ReplyDeleteIf you aren't simply drawing each frame (or editing the previous frame), how are you producing animations? I know nothing about animation so uh... forgive me if this is such a basic question.
ReplyDeleteIt's a combination of both, in pixel art.
DeleteHowever in traditional animation, pretty much every frame is redrawn, unless it's something like a static pose with hair blowing in the wind. (in which case you use the same basic frame, but redraw the hair.)
Flash artists often use rigged "models", which is one image with movable limbs. Better flash artists have rigs at multiple angles and switch between them to give the illusion of more traditional animation.
A small post about the process of your animation would be kind of neat at some point
ReplyDeleteCan't wait for your next release man!!
ReplyDeleteI just realized... compared to the timespan between eroico and kurovadis. This third game of yours is taking quite a while to make. Granted you've been playing around with the gametype and all so I understand the length... but... I know this might sound presumptuous but I feel you might be having some trouble with elemets of the game. If so, what kind of problems are you facing with this game?
ReplyDeleteIt's taking long because I've started three different games lol.
DeleteI'm not really having any out of the ordinary problems with this one, just making all the assets at the moment. After this game I'll be working with a spriter, so I expect the next game to come out like three monthes or less after this one
You should do some hand draw Kuro art... potentially testing the waters for all hand drawn art in kuro 2?!?? eh? eh? A MAN CAN DREAM CAN'T HE!
ReplyDeleteDo you ever plan to stream again? I enjoyed it a lot when you did back then.
ReplyDelete"So basically, it would talk about half an hour per frame to animate" yeah, but that's going the slow way, most studios use animation techniques where they'll create the body, arms, head, facial expressions (etc) seperately, which really speeds up production because you just alter what you need to, and don't have to draw the whole thing over again.
ReplyDeleteIt also looks absolutely awful by comparison. There's a reason why puppet based animation is primarily used by budget Saturday morning cartoons and comedies; it's cheap, and requires very little skill.
DeleteDon't get me wrong, I don't mean that as an insult. It certainly has it's uses. But quite frankly, no animator should be settling for it, and anyone who does is limiting themselves by doing so.
But this is what I don't get...You say that hand-drawing frame by frame is an overall better alternative, despite the time that using "rigged models" saves. Yet, all your sold games utilize the tiniest sprites. Seems like you were trying to save time anyway...
DeleteI think it comes down to the culmination of multiple aspects of a game, when making something great. After all, isn't that what made Kurovadis so great? Because it certainly wasn't the hentai. I think less emphasis should be put on animation techniques, especially when the models in a game like Xenotake are so superior to models in Kurovadis, despite the angles of animation. I mean c'mon...who really took notice of the angles Kuro(or any other thing for that matter) were animated at, while simply trying to clobber enemies and get through the stage, because the gameplay as that good?
Uh, sorry to say, but the models in Xenotake aren't superior. Sure, one frame might look nice, but the animation lacks the dynamics you get from animating frame by frame, everything is done from roughly the same angle. Look at the hair, or the shoulders that never move. And limbs can't just be one part rotated, you need to adjust lines base on perspective. Sure, you can do that in vector, but in the time it takes you to fiddle with your rig, you could just redraw it.
Delete(Note the shoulders, and the angle of the pants)
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/77957.htm#
Also, pixel art is a visual style, whereas puppet animation is a method. I'd rather use a different style and better animation than use an easier method and sacrifice all sense of character and dynamics.
Bad example there, because again the standard sprite size is so small, all that "detail" really won't be taken into account by anybody but you and perhaps other skilled sprite artists. Perhaps your argument that sprite animation takes more skill is spot on(and if that's what you mean by those sprites being superior, then so be it), but does it save time? No, not if you're a skilled vector animator. In this case you provide, does it look better? Not even.
DeleteBut at this point it may be a matter of opinion, so lets leave that there.
When it comes down to using vector, you as the artist are not forced to reuse everything, although its an option. How much is reused and how much is redrawn depends on the skill of the artist and the overall look that artist wishes to attain. Also, if you're going to say "pixel art is a visual style, whereas puppet animation is a method" why are we even comparing them in the first place?
When I think about it, "puppet animation" falls closer to what 3D modeling animation in the majority of games in the past few years, today, and of the future is, than frame by frame sprite animation(which was seen more during the days of 32-16-bit consoles). In other words its something that has become more archaic than not, and if anything, this "puppet animation" is a bit closer to what's current and accepted in the mainstream.
Call me a conformist, and maybe I say conformity is better in this particular case. But then again, there go the opinions.
What are you even talking about. Puppet based animation is not limited to vector art, it can can be used to animate in a variety of mediums or formats, including raster. I never once said I have an issue with vector art. It's as valid as any other format for frame by frame animation.
DeleteOkay, so you can redraw frames during puppet based animation. Guess what, that's called frame by frame animation. How is this an argument for why puppet based animation is as good as frame by frame, exactly? "Well, garbage is better tasting if you put it in a bowl with cake" is not a good argument. It's still going to make the cake taste worse, even if you had to make less of it. -__-
I wasn't comparing pixel art to puppet based animation. I was saying that it's a more viable and time saving form of frame-by-frame animation, and therefore I use it instead of high resolution images when I want to save time. The comparison was the type of animation, not the style or format.
No, puppet animation is not anything like 3d. Because 3d is "3d". The main problem with puppet based animation is that unless you redraw parts of the frame, you can't create an acceptable illusion of depth or 3d space. You can with simple characters that are basic shapes, but certainly not with detailed figures.
And yes, it's as current and mainstream in game's as it is for shitty low budget children's cartoons. That doesn't make it good, and it especially doesn't make it better than frame by frame animation.
And no, conformity in this case is awful. That's like saying I should make casual iphone games that take advantage of players through pay walls and micro-transactions because it would make more money, and it's currently accepted in the mainstream.
To sum up my opinion on the matter, puppet based animation is inherently inferior to frame-by- frame. I see no reason to limit myself, and would much rather strive to achieve something I can be proud of.
Also, here's a better example of a pixel-art run cycle, if you're more worried about size and detail.
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/82101.htm
LmFao. That garbage line got me.
DeleteI know I may sound like a douche when I talk about this sort of thing, but it's just because I'm so sick of seeing puppet based animation. It's fine and all when you're just starting out, but it's not something anybody should settle for, people need to aim higher than that.
Delete"http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/82101.htm"
DeleteHoly crap! You did an awesome job on that!
Yeah he did... something's not right though. I think I might be getting that feeling because her hips are always at the same height even though she's running.
DeleteWow though, this argument was interesting. So to summarize Puppet Animation is a way to save time but you don't save too much time since you have to finalize your puppet with frame by frame techniques anyway. Frame-By-Frame requires more skill but takes more time, however your final product will have better depth of field.
Pretty much.
DeleteThe other problem is that a lot of artists tend to develop a bit of an over-reliance on it, making it difficult for them to eventually make the transition over to frame by frame animation.
Muramasa is a good example of puppet based animation used practically where frame by frame would be impractical. Backgrounds that would otherwise be static and lifeless have subtle movement to help bring the scene to life. On the other hand, the character's are extensively redrawn, but any exceptions frequently and awkwardly keep the same angle. While it still looks good, it would look much better if the frame's were all redrawn.
It amazes me when people can't tell the difference between frame by frame animation and the flash garbage that is so popular today. It amazes me even more when they can't tell when the obviously far superior traditional animation is exponentially better. Are people really so fucking stupid? Keep up the good work, Kyrieru. Sprite art is still popular as hell, despite what a few loud idiots will tell you. Most people can actually recognize good art, I think.
DeleteWell, again, it isn't Flash that's the problem, after all it's just a program. Harry partridge is a good example of a flash animator who swears by frame-by-frame animation.
DeleteIt's the lazy time saving mentality that's the problem. The idea that a rig is "good enough" and the impact that such a way of thinking can have on an animator's ability to learn and improve. Flash is very accessible, so it's often adopted by beginners who are new to animation, and have little to go by. I think as we get older, new animators will be inspired by veteran flash animator's rather than garbage uninformed tutorials and we'll start to see a rise in animation quality.
Hand drawn..? I wasn't able to guess - with shadowing and lines like these, the image on the right looks like made through some celldrawing 3d editor (some 'big' H games look similar in style). Not necessarily a complaint, but it looks a bit.. uncommon.
ReplyDeleteIt's because of the thin lines. It's done digitally but not pixel-by-pixel like pixel art tends to be. I honestly cannot see that celldrawing 3d editor part. I know that some animation techniques use 3D but... this looks pretty much completely 2D.
DeleteI think he's referring to how some 2d games use pre-rendered 3d models.
DeleteDoesn't your sense of anatomy get like, completely fucked up If you hand-draw humans 24/7 at different angles, etc?
DeleteQuite the opposite, actually. Proper animation is a great way to build up your ability to draw quickly and stay on model. A skill I lack, at the moment, given that I hardly ever draw.
DeleteSure, because all those animators who spend all day drawing characters from different angles become worse at it. What?
DeleteI didn't say get permanently worse at it. The silver line I meant was when you do it 24/7 (since this guy does everything himself) and you start to wonder If that angle is unrealistic or too bent, or If the placement of that knee is too high, etc etc. Pixel art has almost none of that and It's much easier to do since It's almost strictly 2d.
DeleteNot really, you tend to draw proper anatomy based on measurements. (for instance, some people base it on heads), and the longer you draw, the more you get used to drawing proper proportions without reference. It's sort of like how the rule of thirds is just dividing something into thirds, but over time you can do it by eye.
DeletePixel aren't isn't actually all that different, since you're still trying to create the illusion of depth and 3d space. But it is easier with smaller sprites.
Obviously almost all drawing that goes after an already existing thing/concept (In this case, human anatomy) is all about pre-determined measurements for there to be a similarity. But the whole point I was trying to make is that the road going from simple pixels (which is a 50 times easier thing to actually accurately measure while also almost completely cutting out the coloring parts) to full-fledged, high resolution hand-drawn animations WILL take It's toll.
DeleteUnless you're doing very low resolution sprites (lower than I'm used to), getting anatomy and shapes right is still a factor. A sprite's hand is far harder than drawing a high resolution hand BECAUSE of the limited space, for instance.
DeleteAnyhow, if by taking it's toll you mean it will take longer, sure, but it has nothing to do with my sense of drawing getting screwed up. I was drawing long before I ever drew a sprite, and I still draw alongside spiriting. There isn't really any transition to make.
For some weird reason, this really reminds me of Skullgirls. It'sa good thing. Excited for your next title... whatever it may be. (Unless it's gay, not into that)
ReplyDeleteKyrieru >< please, please ! Promiss me that from all sexystic games that you make, Never, Never make games where you Play the raper! >< please >< I HATE RAPER Games >< (Where you rape Girls)
ReplyDeleteListen y'all everybody
DeleteYou know they be asking ’bout Common, where he at?
What that man doing now?
I’m doing what I do, Hip-Hop
That's what I do
Yeah
... wait.
He already stated that while making Eroico. Some people asked him if you were playing as the rapist seeing that the MC was male, and he answered that he won't ever make a game where you are the rapist.
ReplyDeleteThough it could be an interesting game concept.
DeleteNot so much focusing on...you know...that part, but a game from the perspective of the poor, abused monsters who are just trying to defend their homeland from the psychopathic warrior.
Puh ^^ What a relief Well the next that I hate would be These porn games that make´s the womens with Breast like water melons and the nipple big like a Tennis ball : FAIL! >_< I´m sure Thai I´m not the only one that can´t stand this ><
DeleteThat's looking pretty sweet. Pixelated sprites have a nice way of leaving details up to the viewer's imagination while still looking stylish and cozy. But being able to see the characters' subtle expressions would add a lot to them and what they go through, all without text. There's no way to tell if it works until you make a few animations including H ones, but if you can pull this off, your games will evolve. I say go for it!
ReplyDeleteSup Kyrieru. What was the name of the application you used to make tracks?
ReplyDeleteFlstudio
DeleteHmm...Probably should have asked that in the soundtrack section --'. Nice picture btw.
ReplyDelete